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Perma-Death and Time Travel - The Ironic Truth

Category: Article Game: Default Posted on Aug 16, 2008 1:08 pm

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A note to the reader - Thank christ that's over. For those of you who dont know me, that was my first try with Photoshop... as you can see it didn't go very well. =P

I'm hoping to get much better with the photoshop over the coming weeks, so that my reviews can be delivered to you in the best quality I can provide. Bare with me while I practice though. :D

Thanks for reading guys, let me know what you thought of the article and the new design. Take it easy!

Nera.
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Tags: Time    Travel    Perma death    death    MMO    WoW    Nera    Neramaar      

Ariticle url: http://my.mmosite.com/blog/6320319ab459b1e916bf77af6d98fb3e/blog/item/fa546eeea65511d9c1c218349fb9f389.html

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comments ( 15 )

Yoshio
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Post Time : Jun 29,2009 4:53 am

I'm not going to comment much on perma-death, because I've argued the concept with a few friends time and again, trying to find compromises to keep the game interesting enough to be financially riskable, and it just hasn't worked out yet.

 

As for time travel... I don't like the way it is portrayed or viewed as in many movies and shows. In some you see the butterfly effect, in others you see inevitable fate, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone use the concept that traveling through time could effectively remove you from time, thereby making you no more than a ghost at best.
omnifas
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Post Time : Aug 18,2008 11:53 pm
I only have 1 opinion on perma-death:

If its Turn-based(FF style, RPS(Rock, paper, scissors) style, formulated dodges and misses) it won't work 100%, why? I myself if pounded with Perma-death would prefer to have full control of my avatar but with turn-based combat even with WASD movement it wouldn't matter, if I jump out of the way in lets say WoW I still will be hit.  Every factor of survival in games like WoW are based off of formulas which don't really go well with perma-death.

What type of game would go well with Perma-death?  Something that would allow nearly 100% control over everything.  Lunia for example would fit well with Perma-death, every mistake is either done by you or lag, you forget to dash away its youre fault, or if you sword at nothingness thats your miss, not a formulated miss.

So in conclusion if its Turn-based Perma-death will probably not get embraced since its possible that your death was out of your control.
ajthebaka
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Post Time : Aug 18,2008 8:12 pm
Oh yeah, I could I forget NPC combat xD
Permadeath is always applied to PvP, yet often comes up in PvE situations in my mind, yet this can make the game truly thrilling >:] TobiasMasters had written a short story in is blog about a warrior trying to steal a harpy egg, the narration is in first person, the character constantly explaining their emotions as being tense and fearful, because the character likely isn't going to respawn at the nearest town xP Thrilling encounters can happen like that; However, having it happen in five seconds flat from two random enemies attacking you would feel pathetic. If death is a huge deal, it shouldn't come in a matter of seconds from a single bad choice.
neramaar replied at 11:07 pm Aug 18,2008
Hehe, I know that short story all too well, I grew up with TobiasMasters, hell - he's at my place right now =P

You're exactly right, the emotions the character in that story felt would not exist without the fear of death, however applying the same emotions to a game while at the same time being fair to the player would indeed be difficult. I think the key here (as you yourself mentioned earlier) is brainstorming, identifying problems like this and discussing them until a suitable solution is found.
AkatsukiSwordmaster
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Post Time : Aug 18,2008 8:03 pm
Very neat article bro.
A perma-death system in a game would be sooo awesome, since its something new. The only time I experienced perma-death was when I was playing a final fantasy game for hours with no memory card then a spit second black out happened and all my work disappeared somewhere in the gaming world...

I would like to kill people and watch them say: OMG!!! WTF You F***ing Noob!!! WHAT THE &*!@.
 Lol. J.k j.k. Im not like that...

I will write up an article with my ideas when im more awake, sorry near.

neramaar replied at 11:01 pm Aug 18,2008
Hahaha, sll good bro. Glad to see you're into the idea though!
Layce
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Post Time : Aug 18,2008 6:37 pm
Sorry for one more thing, if this idea is applied, there is need to consider the balance between player and monster, because players cant simply take death especially it is perma-death, just look at the mmorpgs now most of them they made the monster overpowered and overamount aggresive, it is already too hard if 2 monsters hit u at the same time, and if perma-death because if this, then it is too hard for a game to play. Ops time to go >< any idea I will come up here and add up. Cya~
ajthebaka
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Post Time : Aug 18,2008 6:28 pm
@Layce: That's why I believe there needs to be heavy punishment for killing a player no matter who they are (Unless a government system was put in to place that could decide legal bounties), of course killing a player can be rewarding only if you killed someone who managed to put up a fight.

Example: You kill hundreds of level 1 characters, the government puts a 500,000 gold bounty on your head, now you have players left and right trying to kill you (They may even TEAM UP on you to split it if you're that strong), was it worth it? What if you just kill one player around your level range, you get all of their gear and gold, a bounty may be placed but you didn't claim as many lives, so maybe the bounty reward would be lower and you'd have less players on you all the time, PLUS you got all of that player's stuff!
Layce
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Post Time : Aug 18,2008 6:07 pm
That was a very exciting but scary idea o_o just think of it and my head is sweated...I remember the thrill when I play resident evil. Its a very good idea but however I have question to ask: How you take care those gangster in game if perma-death is applied? There is always people who is selfish and ego that likes to kill people with no reason, and they were always not alone, most of the time in mmorpg it happens that a whole guild was a pker which they like to bully other with their high level character, so how was it if all of them just keep killing low level people and owns the game because all the low level character was perma- death? o_O Sorry If I miss the point. But I agree this idea can apply to other kind of mmo like if there is like resident evil online for example, and I really feel excited for it.
ajthebaka
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Post Time : Aug 18,2008 8:53 am
Idea spawned by article O_O!

Every account is a "business" or something along those lines and "hires" characters that they may play as. For example, a new account hires the cheapest (probably free) character they can, obviously a level one. Playing as that character, of course, will get that character stronger. Your business earns a certain amount of money per the achievements of that character. The character, however, gets killed by another player (PvP needs to have very strong punishment, yet awesome reward, and not just having you die because a rogue ganked you and killed you in five seconds, how about longer battles, 10 minutes? xD) in order to receive a bounty placed by another player in an underground mercenary establishment, and can retrieve any item they want that the corpse is holding. If you were smart you weren't holding everything the character owns, you'd likely bank extra money and items, and perhaps depending on how attached the character was to your business (How well you treat them and pay them), you'd get a portion of their belongings as written in their will, a good idea from Mingnon. You've earned enough money, however, to hire another character, they may not have been as strong as your last one, but it's way better than starting from level one.

Community, name rights, guilds, government, etc, are things that would need to be considered, I'm sure a room of brainstorming developers could solve those (Do MMORPG companies even do this anymore?)... I could expand on this forever (I do that kind of thing with MMORPG ideas often), but I guess that part is relative to this article the most :P
neramaar replied at 2:53 pm Aug 18,2008
Well done dude, that's a top idea there mate. You've just done in a matter of minutes what some game devolpers can't seem to manage during the course of an entire game production.

That would work out really well! Could expand on the idea by maybe allowing each playert land, and the rights to build. Think of it as builing you're own city in an MMO, and hiring characters to do you're bidding. Good players would barely be affected by death, whilst it would still create strong emotions. I love it!
Shuryken
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Post Time : Aug 18,2008 2:38 am
Hmm...I read this post and really liked the idea about MMOs have a perma-death system.
Now time for some ideas...to make the game more like reality
- users are only allowed to make one character
- everyone in the game is 'born' diffrent... not just stats wise...also in talent n stuff
  eg. I start a character and I have low str, dex, int, vit, but to compensate for it I have higher exp rate
- since its gonna be a perma-death game it is obvious that most people would either jz not care about dying or be over
  concious about dying...to combat that problem, players will have a chance to obtain 'super-powers' if they risk their lives
  and fight and succeed.
- for those who are careless or just dont care about dying...they will be sent to the underworld map...and have to
  in which they have to survive for a period of time ( maybe a few days - time ONLINE ) before they are given a special
  chance to return to the living world. If they die once more and have not achieved anything yet they are sent back to
  the underworld for the rest of their lives( or character oermanantly deleted- their choice ), BUT if they have achieved
  quite alot while they were alive, they can be sent to Paradise ( what is in paradise I have no idea yet ).
- Also... the game could include more than just fighting monsters to gain experience...players could gain experience
  through art, crafting, music and stuff ( which will be based on real talent and not just chance )
- The PvP system mentioned by the author is very facinating, as it would be more realistic to have less people willing to
  risk their lives in a random fight.
- (before I present my next opinion I would like to be clear that I do not encourage stealing or robbing or killing in real life)
  but we cant deny that it is hapening...so maybe this could also be implemented i
neramaar replied at 2:53 am Aug 18,2008
Great ideas there mate! I love them! See? The option for Perma-Death really could open a lot of doors for us MMOers, and bring back the experience! MMO's have become stale, and lifeless - it's time for a change! Bring on Perma-Death!
redkaliber
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Post Time : Aug 18,2008 1:33 am
I like this idea very much. MMORPG's really need something interesting like this. As you said it would add a new level of emotion to our game experience. I guess a battle-system with a way to actually avoid and defend attacks on your own would fit in nicely. PVP seems like a good idea for a 1-1 duel... Maybe add a mode for 10-10 with respawn, like a instance or something. Open PVP sounds kinda chaotic in a perma-death game. This would be good on the community too because most people would feel safer going out into the wilds with some help. It would add a great sense of realism... If done correctly.
neramaar replied at 1:53 am Aug 18,2008
Some great Ideas there mate! I like the idea of removing Perma-Death when in instances/battlegrounds to add a better experience. Maybe instead of Perma Death in those situations just have a high chance for item loss, so that there is still a good deal of risk. And you said it perfectly - if done properly - for a game such as this to survive it would need to be done properly. No shortcuts, no crap. Properly.
Blazerguy
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Post Time : Aug 18,2008 1:26 am
This is a very great opinion, I'm very proud that someone actually thought of something like this. That Shaiya game isn't very fun so I wouldn't want to try the "Ultimate Mode" anyway, but the Perma-Death can still work in another game if the game was created not just with Perma-Death in mind, but it's part of the core gameplay. But Lekaku is right about the whole "Top Player" thing, the only way to keep people from doing that is to remove leveling up and make it based on Equipment like Monster Hunter
neramaar replied at 1:39 am Aug 18,2008
Thanks mate! Yeah...Shaiya's ultimate mode kinda scares me, as the game wasnt designed for Perma Death and it could get hairy. As fot the Top Player issue, one idea would be to limit PvP to people that are within 3 level of you, so that you can't be ganked by a high level. Thats one of many options I suppose, but never give up! There is always another idea to be thought of. :)
lekaku
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Post Time : Aug 18,2008 12:54 am

wow nice opinion!

perma death would definitely be a great addition to MMOs....just hope that no one abuses their place as top player and kill everyone else so they cant progress and he/she will remain top player

well i guess that would be solved with a new game design.....lesser levels....real need for control of the character instead of time spent grinding

kinda like the "will" idea...but im not really for the multiple char control....it role play damit

well i doubt many would agree  with my opinion...but im just saying

neramaar replied at 1:33 am Aug 18,2008
Hey, I agree! Thats the whole point, we need a wealth of ideas, we need to lump them together then I can submit them to a few developers that have been considering Perma-Death as an option. We might even make a difference. :D
TobiasMasters
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Post Time : Aug 17,2008 5:19 am

I'm all for perma-death, you can hear the "Gamers Against Tobias" rallying out the front can't you? Yeah...

Perma-death would fully spice up any game. Now no-one notices the hero marching through town geared up with a full Gildarchron set of equipment and his mighty sword Gravesoul hanging by his side. Those tales go by unnoticed currently because there's no true risk in obtaining them.

 

People don't like risk though, that's the problem. But it takes a real hero to face his risk and claim a greater reward...

But I'm just babbling by now, nevermind me. Sleep time!

Well written Nera, your quality is always exceptional. If you ever need a hanewith photoshop then gimme a yell, I'd be happy run you through a few tricks =D

neramaar replied at 6:35 am Aug 17,2008
Will do champ, thanks for the offer.
flowerKitten
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Post Time : Aug 16,2008 8:31 pm
Are you kidding me? This is a decent and neat work with photoshop! Nice article as always Cody.
neramaar replied at 11:21 pm Aug 16,2008
Thanks Kitty! I'll get better over time. :D
Mingnon
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Post Time : Aug 16,2008 3:03 pm

A good idea for an MMO to be Perma-Death friendly would be to allow control of multiple characters, ala Granado Espada. Also, if the character does, in fact, die, he'd need to place a sort of 'will' onto his equipment, items and even gold to be transferred over to the next character. Also, new characters would need a sort of expirience boost to catch up a bit to where the last character was previously.

Just some ideas on the table to reduce the idea of any effort going to waste.

neramaar replied at 11:20 pm Aug 16,2008
Very good ideas!! I like the Multi Character thought, would give players a few more chances to survive.



Thanks

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